OK, I wanted to flag this issue up early and see what peoples views were.
In previous games as a group we have very much been against random character death. This has ranged from the occasional pulling of punches, giving second chances and occasionally outright ignoring the dice.
Now, I know why we do it and to a large extent I agree why. Its hard to sustain an ongoing narrative plot when one of the main protagonists is stabbed in the face half way through.
However, I want to raise the issue specifically in the case of 4e and this game. The game we are creating is one without a strong central narrative plot. This is not Crescent sea v2.0. I see this more like a series of Conan short novels set in the same region. There may be some ongoing plot arcs you involve yourself with and you can be sure there will be epic over the top action but I dont see the death of any individual character seriously screwing up the game.
So, should character death be on the table? Its a given that the group can fail but failure doesnt have to just mean death. Failure can and does result in lots of complications but should death be an option?
Looking at the rules it seems that characters are significantly more robust. You start with more HP, you can recover them mid fight more easily, there are minimal "save or die" effects and you get a large buffer between being unconcious and dead. The chances of outright death are relatively low unless the whole party is going down (and I should be able to avoid that!).
So, what do people think. Is random death an option or is a step too far for us.
11 comments:
Okay, can we just clarify what we are talking about? I assume we are basically saying: dice fall where they may, even that results in death?
I'm going on that basis. Two things come into my head initially:
(1) How swingly is the system? If it is swingy, and not that predictable you may get deaths due to an unfortunate sequence of unavoidable events (dramatically or tactically)? I know you don't say use it as an example, but by using an action point that Dragon took two people out in one round.
(2) It will change the tone of the encounters. I'm not saying at this point it'll change totally for the negative, but it will change them. It may also increase the weight of the tactical over the dramatic flare, especially if (1) combines with (2).
Given a level of stability and predictability so choice isn't remove I'm fine with it generally - though a part of me always thinks of the whole load of wasted 'story potential' when it actually happens.
Yes, thats what i am talking about. Let the dice fall and see what happens.
On my current still rather brief skim of the game it doesnt seem all that swingy at all.
It would require me to be quite careful with encounter design.
The dragon encoutner example probably isnt too relevant for a couple of reasons:
1. The group was only 3 people, the dragon was a solo monmster designed for a group of 5.
2. A 5 man group would have had a much easier time of containing it or upping peoples defences.
3. I think it is unlikely I will use many if any solo encounters. Solo monsters tend to have way too many HP which can result in people hitting with their big guns then spamming at will powers for the next hour until everyone dies of boredom.
I'm fine with it overall.
I think some of us thought Pendragon was playing like that for the most part and it wasn't a problem.
I'm instinctively against randon character death though if it's up-front and on the table from the start I can't see there being a massive problem with it. I still wouldn't be comfortable with the death of a character that the player has put a lot of time and effort into creating but who never gets to fulfill his potential.
If the Conan-style story is what you are looking for, how about this?
You have no death in some of the sessions - like the first few of an arc - and you flag some sessions as 'Death Enabled' when we come to the crunch of a storyline?
Random, pointless death (my Paladin vs the Kobolds) in the early parts of an adventure, serves no purpose. It wastes creativity and time. Death at the climax of a story or as a consequence of actions or story, is perfectly justified.
Essentially, the closer you get to the prize, the higher the stakes become and death becomes one such stake.
I, personally, think that marks a nice middle ground between 'golden glow of PC story invulnerability' and 'Oh dear, the great wizard Fnarr was killed by a lucky shot by a passing mugger.'
Neil
If we go a 'death enabled' flag then we have to choose the granularity: as it could get interesting as it fluctuates per story, session or encounter. This is especially true since the game is about managing resources when the dice hit the combat mat.
You might edge towards saving them for the death enabled encounter if the granularity is per encounter?
If an encounter happens on the fly, like Artemis and Kallista getting voilent do we decide then if the flags on?
If it's on per story then you may well get killed by some kobolds in the first encounter.
Hah, what fun people would have with this on Enworld!
You know what the best bet is? When the system and/or encounter set-up heavily weights situations to always make it the player's choice to take that step? If we have that, it shouldn't be a problem.
As in take the step towards risking death (no the choice to die per se).
Hmm, I think I need to go and read the Bringing Down the Pain rules in TSoY.
One thing I'd also throw into this pot when making this decision is the nature of the character creation rules.
I'm not sure characters vary that much mechanically reall? Is there that much difference between one ranger and another beyond a a couple of build directions?
Also consider we've tended to avoid playing the same classes, partly for this reason I think.
So, if someone dies and needs to create a new character.....?
This links into my comments on replay value as in some small way an un-accounted for death creates an element of replay.
Artemis dies, I need to create a new character...I'd see my options mechanically limited.
I think that is probably a very valid point at low level but one which becomes less of an issue as your options expand.
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